so romney in fact and i've talked to romney's strategists about this, they know that voters don't actually believe that you're going to have a big net tax cut for anybody. it's not credible. >> the linchpin of the entire plan is to raise taxes on people 250 or above, which does nothing for the definite sit, does nothing with entitlements. not only are you not talking details, all you have is raising tax on people that have money and talking about nothing else. >> the distinction is that the romney campaign is saying we're not going to raise taxes on the middle class, but by the way, we really are. >> hold on. joe, obama -- first of all, raising taxes on people at the top may not be sufficient, but it's not nothing. it does raise money. >> we need a trillion and it's like $80 billion. >> $80 billion? >> it's like 80 build per year. and we need to cut -- close the deficit by a trillion. we got a trillion dollar deficit and it raises like -- i think it's less. maybe 40 billion. >> are you correct, it's not sufficient. >> and he's not talking about anything else. you can keep your entitlement,